Aliens...silly SETI

[Lozzie]

Originally Posted by Elev8/Levit8

Loz, just because we don't know how to define the beginning of time doesn't mean time only applies in relation to earth. Time itself isn't inconsistent at all, only the means of measuring it is inconsistent. just because we can't measure beck to the beginning of time, doesn't mean time didn't exist before we could measure it...

I think what you're trying to say is that time is cyclical & not linear (?)
if that's the case, then time travel must be possible... I'm not sure I can agree with that...

If there was no such thing as the concept of time, then nothing could move, (movement is a change in location in space over time) which also means that without time, there'd be a very different (and inconsistent) concept of space. I think that'd un-explain far more things than it explains...

I agree with a lot of the things you say - (except perhaps for the whole "progress", "positive fashion" bit... I think progress is something that everyone will define differently, so what it is depends on who you are).

Also, you said sumamt along the lines of "everything has a point"... by that are you making the argument for pre-determined destiny? Cos if you are I'll have you up on that one n'all

My own view is that life/progress/all that happy sh1te is one big accident. We're blundering along blindly trying to understand stuff, but all we're really doing is guessing. it could all go spectacularly tits up tomorrow, and all bets would be off. I definitely don't believe in destiny though.

I dont think time goes in a cycle at all. I just don't beleive you can measure infinity as time. It just doesnt stick with me. Maybe ur interpretation of time...is different than mine. I don't think you need a measurement of anything to move. (do you follow) It's v.hard to get out exactly whats in my head in this massive interlinking picure I have in my brain...damn my dyslexia (dyslexic think in visuals...and are not good with words to explain it...thus v.frustrating- einstein they think was dyslexic)


As progression, I mean like dropping a bucket of water on the floor, it spreads it continuosly moves...and not backwards (i don't beleive time travel is possible, not backward anyways)

And, no...I certainly DO NOT believe in pre-destiny...what the hell would be the point in that? If there was already an answer to everything, there would be no point in being here...why couldn't it all just get to that point now, instead of wasting all this energy getting to wherever it is it knows its going...so no, there is no pre-destiny. It'd be like going to get somthing ur sat next to...but to get it, going to australia and back just to sit down and pick it up...duuuuuhhhhhh

Yeh, we could all fuck off tomorow, but everything that exists, ever, is here because it is a cog (no matter how small) in the big plan of everything. Maybe there is no point to the big plan of everything, and this is why we should just enjoy ourselves and stop asking the meaning of life. Maybe, the point is...to just do it, keep going, keep progressing(as in not going backwards-in time, in ur age, in ur thoughts), keep, doing whatever it is you do. Everything else does, and that is the point. i don't need a point that makes my little brain feel better (ie...we'll all meet our maker in a glorious day of realisation and all the worlds questions will be answered). Everything, just "is" "does" and thats it...we are just part of it doing it all.

[Elev8/Levit8]

Loz,

Sorry if my pedantic questions are stressing you petal.
That's not what I'm trying to do (pwomise).

You said you don't believe in pre-destiny, but that everything is a small cog in the Big Plan...
But if there's a Big Plan, then there must be a destiny
sorry... i'm struggling a bit there...

Infinity can't be measured in any way. doesn't mean it doesn't exist though. It's the measurements which are bollocks, not the thing they're trying to measure! Hours/mins/days/secs are bollocks, but time is just about the only guaranteed truth we have! Nobody's managed to break it's rules yet (as far as I know), and plenty have tried.

You don't need any measurements of time for something to move...
But how can you tell if something's moved if you don't check it's location at 2 separate points in time? To see anything move, you need time... one can't exist without t'other...

Like I said before, everything's changing... "evolving" might be a decent word to describe it, whether it's your spilt bucket of water, or man evolving from the apes... I believe a big part of it is random though (within a certain set of rules).

[Lozzie]

Originally Posted by Elev8/Levit8

Loz,

Sorry if my pedantic questions are stressing you petal.
That's not what I'm trying to do (pwomise).

You said you don't believe in pre-destiny, but that everything is a small cog in the Big Plan...
But if there's a Big Plan, then there must be a destiny
sorry... i'm struggling a bit there...

Infinity can't be measured in any way. doesn't mean it doesn't exist though. It's the measurements which are bollocks, not the thing they're trying to measure! Hours/mins/days/secs are bollocks, but time is just about the only guaranteed truth we have! Nobody's managed to break it's rules yet (as far as I know), and plenty have tried.

You don't need any measurements of time for something to move...
But how can you tell if something's moved if you don't check it's location at 2 separate points in time? To see anything move, you need time... one can't exist without t'other...

Like I said before, everything's changing... "evolving" might be a decent word to describe it, whether it's your spilt bucket of water, or man evolving from the apes... I believe a big part of it is random though (within a certain set of rules).

I don't think ur being pedantic...I love a challenge. It's humbling etc.

Ok, the plan...is for everything to create this energy to help everything do it's do...we create energy as we move kinetic even for example...everything transfers energy...keeping it fluid. Helping the everything to make this big vibrating ball of energy that makes up an antom in someones carpet somewhere...do you follow. We all have choice in what we do...as this is effective, and keeps people doing their do. The point of the energy...I dunno, the best I can come up with, is just that it goes, does, moves whatever. And just simply...exists,by existingwe help everything else to exist, but we can have a life within that and make it as colourful as we choose to.


OK, I'm pondering on ur time thing now...I do believe in infinity (even if I put it accross wrongly)


I believe it's all random/but following a set of rules too...but there is a point...our small lives help move things, otherwise we would just cease to be... hope this clarifies things a little????

[Elev8/Levit8]

Originally Posted by Lozzie

but there is a point...our small lives help move things, otherwise we would just cease to be... hope this clarifies things a little????

I'm with ya (i think) but would put it another way...

There is only a fixed amount of energy. We can't create it or destroy it. All we can do it change it from one form to another...

[passingphantom]

quite interesting topic and so vast that I ahve difficulties make my way through it all.
Well, is there such a notion as time?
Is there such a thing as "reality"? what is it?
I tend to thinkt hat reality is what we perceive of it, the same thing with time. does it apply to earth? Space? mankind? Any living thing?
Yes and no. Yes, because we perceive it evolve (or we know it evolves like our universe expands, or man comes from a primatelife form which comes originally from a primitive cosmic life-soup without which life could never have been born) and no because what we see evolve does not necessarily have a conscience or a notion of time... The concept of time applies to the one who is aware of it. A rock will turn into sand in a million years, yet is time relevent to it? It's relevent to us as we wnat to understand its evolution, its history. Based on this what is eternity? And by the same token what is infinity?
My theory is that it's like Schrödinger's cat. Put a cat in a box, leave it there. the box is airlocked and you ahve no way of knowing if the cat is alive or dead... Once the box is closed you have no way of knowing how the cat is doing inside...
come back an hour later... As you are about to open the box, in your mind, the cat is alive and dead at the same time, because you are wondering... that's the example that Schrödinger used to explain his theroy according to which a particule can be in two states at the same time in some given conditions (and this was proved 60 years after he formulated it through the "Boz Einstein condensate) (sorry I don't now how to spell the names of the guys who applied it).
Anyway, just to say that eternity, like infinity is all and nothing at the same time as it is an absolute...

Some african cultures have a different notion of time. for them, the future is in behind them (as they don't see it) and the past is in front of them (as they know what it is, they can see it, describe it, they know the events that happened in the past)...
what is progress? Is it moving forward? what does it mean "moving forward"? Is progress necessarily "positive"? and what does "ositive mean" since what is positive for you might be negative for me.

All of this is a matter of how we perceive our world and that belongs ot us as conscious individuals.
and now about carbon-based life-forms we can only comprehend life as carbon based. Yet, we know that other kinds of lives can exist (deep seacreatures living in a high-pressured sulfuric environment (over 100°C with very high pressure due to the combination of both the sea water and the pressure of the lava coming out of the earth...
Based on this, life is possible elsewhere. To beleive that life is only carbon based only means that we are no better than those beleiving that thesun moves around the earth and that we are at the center of the universe...

Besides, we have already found (in secluded caves, and I know one case in romania) some silitium-based life-forms so...

Well, sorry for the ver long answer.. I hope that what I said made sense at least a little...

[Ed]

Fuck Lozzie you are deep Brilliant thread.

There's a zen story that in a round about way adds to the discussion.

Two men were arguing about a flag flapping in the wind.
"It's the wind that is really moving," stated the first one.
"No, it is the flag that is moving," contended the second.
A Zen master, who happened to be walking by, overheard the debate and interrupted them. "Neither the flag nor the wind is moving," he said,
"The MIND moves!"

The universe, in whatever form is a reflection of/extension of our conciousness. If we think non carbon aliens exist, in one of the infinite number of universes they do. If you believe time travel can happen, in one of the universes it can.

Essentially the mind or conciousness has infinite possibilities. When you realise you are part of that conciousness, the power you hold takes your breath away.

With regards to the predestiny point, as I said in SJ's thread earlier in the week, there is no time. No past, no future, just now.

I've cut and pasted a bit from the heart sutra here, one of the oldest Buddhist texts. Its beautiful I think and touches on some of the themes above.

form not different emptiness, emptiness not different form;
form then is emptiness, emptiness then is form.
Feeling, perception, volition, consciousness also again [the] same are.
All the senses are empty appearances:
not born, not destroyed, not dirty, not clean, not increasing, not decreasing
Is therefore emptiness amid no form, no feeling, perception, volition, consciousness
no eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind;
no color, sound, smell, taste, touch, dharma
no eye-element etc. until no mind-consciousness-element
no ignorance, also no ignorance end
until no aging [and] death, also no aging [and] death end
no suffering, origin, cessation, path
no knowledge, also no attainment

There's a full version with explanation here if anyone wants it
http://www.andrew-may.com/zendynamics/heart.htm

[Ed]

Originally Posted by Shooms

I could spend all day writing on this thread as it fascinates, intrigues & enthuses me totally It's better than a night in, watching match of the day in me pants while eating a Frey Bentos pie straight from the tin

I'm supposed to be working tho so I'll save it for Ron

Heavily stained y-fronts

[ilovepiano]

Time isn't just something that we "created", for want of a better word, by dividing up the Earths rotation around the sun and making watches out of pieces of quartz.

Space and time are mixed up together, and you can't change one without affecting the other. Gravity is also connected, as it is something that is a product of bending space-time.

Think of space-time like a sheet of stretched out rubber, and put a weight in the middle - the sun. It sinks down yeah? Then try rolling a marble - a planet - in a straight line past the sun. It bends towards the sun yeah? That's gravity, but it works in 3D.

So the heavier the object, the more it bends space and time, and the stonger its gravitational force is. And also the mass of an object has an effect on time. Time will run slower the closer you are to a massive body - like the sun or Vanessa Feltz. A clock at sea level will run slower than one at the top of Mount Everest. Not by much like, but enough to be important enough to worry about when keeping satalites in position.

Does that make any sense? LOL

[passingphantom]

Yes, it does make sense mate.. I don't remember the name of this theory but if I understand its conclusion, the universe is folded on itself, which means that an object that looks relaly far away from you is actually just next door (like a star)...
and the theory (I don't know how, too hard to understand fr me) predicts that we can get to this object next door using a "wrom hole" that this worm hole makes us travel not only through space but time. the problem is the stability of the worm hole and how and for how long it exists...

I suggest the reading of a book called "star trek's physics" (something like that)... it separates the right from the wrong in all the theories and scenarios explored in Star Trek... It's written by a very respected scientist... it's easy to find. it was released in 95...

[passingphantom]

[quote=Lozzie]I like the paralel universe theory...but what is the point of it??? Like, what does it achieve?

My (hahaha, I was going to say "vibrator theory"-actually, I will call it that!hahaha) follows scientific models of what is. Like, the transference of energy into somthing else. And the point of everything is to "progress" foreward in a possative manner, there is some drag, as with all things, like a car on the motorway AND old people who refuse to anknowledge the foreward thrust of modern things...THEY ALL FOLLOW THE SAME LAW. Some things are infont,

Actually the "vibrator theory" is called the "string theory" or is it "super string theory"? I don't remember because all of this is way over my small head... it fascinates me but it's all ahrd to grasp...

From the very little I understood, the universe is bi-dimensional and each thing has a consequence, like you are rubbing the string of a chello... the universe vibrate and one thing leads to anther, what could be called progress..
Well, it's a zillion times more complex than that, I just know that it keeps cosmologist thinking...

[Miss C]

Originally Posted by Elev8/Levit8

Loz, just because we don't know how to define the beginning of time doesn't mean time only applies in relation to earth. Time itself isn't inconsistent at all, only the means of measuring it is inconsistent. just because we can't measure beck to the beginning of time, doesn't mean time didn't exist before we could measure it...

If there was no such thing as the concept of time, then nothing could move, (movement is a change in location in space over time) which also means that without time, there'd be a very different (and inconsistent) concept of space. I think that'd un-explain far more things than it explains...

.

Exactly, of course time exists, I think the concept just gets way overcomplicated & mangled up when its a straightforward measurement. It took 'time' for me to type this post, just as if i was sat up on pluto it would still take 'time' for me to type this post. Time doesn't change/cease to exist on other planets just because a different amount of time to orbit around the sun, things still happen/have happened...

[fugjostle]

Time is a relative, summat like Auntie Sue with the saggy boobs

Was watching a program the other day that went through the physics of a time travel device. It involved the creation of a type of worm hole. This worm hole exists in nature, typically in the upper atmosphere where cosmic rays hit the earths atmosphere. These sub-atomic particles are created and last for millionths of second but travel at the speed of light, or just short. To a casual observer like us, the particle appears to last for several seconds but its relativity taking effect on it.

These particles can be artifically created right now within a particle accelerator but to create a set of particles to be used for this purpose we would have to create a particle accelerator that stretched to the moon and back.

Up to this point its all possible but in order to create the time travel effect, the particles would have to be placed to a powerful gravitation field which would do something technical and once in this charged state would act as a "worm hole" back to the point they were charged. All this is possible and provable (at a mathimatical level anyhoots). The ability to store a small black hole for charging purpose would prove a bit tricky tho. But you never know what those boffins at dyson will come up with next

Anyhoops, its 2am and my mind is shutting down

[Brock Landers]

Absolutely fascinating thread, how can I be sure that all you lot/everything else/all my knowledge isn't part of some all knowing sentient being, how do I know that I am not the ONLY thing in existence? How do I know that all of history actually happened and isn't part of some whimsical saga I have recently dreamed up? Why does my mind only allow other "people" invent things that are useful and I have to earn money to buy them?

Why are we here and if you lot are real, why do you make my/everyone elses life so difficult?

What if we are some higher evolved races version of a video game? Like Grand theft auto etc

Or some sub sub sub atomic particles of a universe very very far away, where does it stop?

That Guinness advert from the mid 90's summed it up pretty succinctly.....

[MizzDeedz]

i saw this thread and thought wooott seti found aliens...................

[Elev8/Levit8]

Originally Posted by Ed

The universe, in whatever form is a reflection of/extension of our conciousness. If we think non carbon aliens exist, in one of the infinite number of universes they do. If you believe time travel can happen, in one of the universes it can.

Well put! f00kin A1 man... That's what I was tryin to say (badly) with all that rambly shite earlier in this thread...